For Sale: Facebook Shares, 67% Off

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ForSale2.jpgWhat is Facebook really worth? We know it's not worth $15 billion -- earlier this week a federal court, ruling on the ConnectU case, confirmed that the company has already placed a different value on its shares than the one they publicly announced as part of last fall's Microsoft deal.

Now Mike Arrington reports that Bill Dagley, a California money manager, is repping a seller with a block a stock they're willing to part with at a "value far less than $15 billion." He then cites a source that says the valuation Dagley's client is looking for is in the $3 billion to $4 billion range.

Sound plausible? It does to us. We've heard a different but similar version of the story from "Stone", a prolific and anonymous SAI commenter, for a while. The last time that Stone threw this one out -- this week -- he asserted that the valuation was "less than $4 billion for sure."

And now, prompted by Arrington's report, we've heard from a different source -- this one we know, but have agreed not to identify -- who says that in April, he was offered a 0.25% stake for $12.5 million -- a $5 billion valuation. Our source, who didn't move forward with the deal, says they weren't approached by Bill Dagley but by a Facebook employee, inquiring on behalf of another Facebook employee.

So either said Facebook employee is now working with Dagley, or there are multiple Facebook shareholders looking to unload shares for 2/3rds or less of the $15 billion number the company boasted about last fall. We'd bet on the latter.

See Also: It's Official: Facebook Not Worth $15 Billion



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40 Comments

Timothy Sykes (URL) said:
Thank u for being one of the few working on a Sat. night, this is some interesting stuff!

Brick said:
Stone is Mark Cenedella, the CEO of the Ladders, btw: http://www.cenedella.com/stone/

Joseph Hunkins (URL) said:
I like the 80% off deal at the 3 billion valuation better, though I think it's a stretch even to make that valuation for a company that earns so little.

Alexander Muse (URL) said:
Okay, so as someone who has been in this spot before I think I might be able to explain why you are seeing such a wide spread. The 15 billion dollar valuation was for PREFERRED STOCK! The 3 billion dollar valuation was for COMMON STOCK! Get it? The common stock is NEVER worth as much as the preferred so hence it would sell for a lower price.

James Deibele (URL) said:
Have seen a couple of references to the valuation being at $15 billion for preferred stock only. Is there anything public about why the preferred would be valued 5X the common?

stone said:
There should be a fairly tight relationship between the value of preferred and the value of common. The discount is normally around 15% but sometimes is slightly larger if the "rights" provisions of the "preferred" are extreme. I seriously doubt that Microsoft has blocking rights or anything really funky. We know they don't even have a board seat, so this tells me that the discount has to be pretty slim. If they have discounted more than 15% then I suggest that the IRS might want to know about it.

As for the substance of the matter, aside from me telling you guys about this I've also told you that Facebook, in general, has some serious issues. I've heard that their site architecture is a disaster and that a total re-write of their product is required. This is part of the reason why they need all the money they keep raising --- to keep buying servers to compensate for their technology problems.

People that work there tend to believe this is a fad which is why you might soon begin to see more of these stories IMHO.

hi.... nice

purple haze said:
@ stone -
are there metrics that point to it being a fad? early adopters bailing? high churn? tiny % of high frequency users with a great drop-off for other users? i haven't seen any stats but my personal experience doesn't reflect a fad-like adoption - no one seems to dropping off and more professional contacts are friending me than are linkedinning these days.

from the outside monetization seems like a bigger challenge...

stone said:
I think there's a healthy fear that this goes the way of Frienster, etc. Not sure about any specific metrics except for my own use, which has come to a complete halt.

in the know said:
i heard from a well informed source that the primary seller is Matt Cohler.

@stone: fwiw, i'm noticing a large second (or is it third?) wave of users coming to the site. Getting pinged by lots of high school, college acquaintances who have clearly signed up for first time in last couple months. Don't know if they're replacing users who have gotten bored and left, but would bet that overall numbers, for the time being, still increasing.

Michael (URL) said:
Everyone here needs to go to www.pedatacenter.comm and look at some of the amended Certs of VC companies. Pricing of shares is changing drastically, especially in today's market environment.

jrh said:
Non-preferred shares of a non-current employee are the most risky of all. They are most likely to get wiped out in a down round.

The relationship between preferred and common valuation is not necessarily tight. There's a cliff at the bottom where preferred get almost everything and common get almost nothing. The discount is related to the chance of the final valuation being in this zone.

MS, being a strategic investor, is getting all sorts of tangential benefits, such as inside info on social networking. If you're just trying to make money off a few common shares, you are in a different category altogether.

Early Facebook user here (April 2004), whose friend list is growing faster now than it did in 2005/2006. I don't see it as a fad. The hardcore users -- early to mid 20somethings, like me -- are still on it, and now the kids who weren't nerds in high school/my parents/friends who were, for some reason, loyal to MySpace early on, etc. are signing up.

The only people I've noticed who have flaked off are the self-proclaimed "social media experts" who signed on for the first time last year when the apps platform just launched, so they could know all about it and could tell their blog readers/consulting clients about it. These are the same 10,000 who are now obsessed with Friendfeed -- whose amplified voices in the tech media echo chamber don't represent mainstream society. Good riddance, anyway.

Not saying Facebook is going to grow faster, or that it won't be replaced by something better/different, or that it's worth anywhere near $15 billion. But the people who have used it the most over the years are still using it multiple times a day.

Mike Zimmerman (URL) said:
what we have is a handful of goobers who do tech blogs proclaiming 'winners' with lousy sites nobody uses and never will use. techcrunch, scobble and others have to write about something so they write about the latest hype. do us a favor and don't bother with these blogs, they are hyped and inaccurate reflections of MAINSTREAM USA.

Mike Zimmerman (URL) said:
p.s. facebook has always been a turd of a technology, very clunky

i built an app for facebook and found out that the users are more interested in flinging turds at each other's profiles than anything else

wow, what a business! not.

Interesting learning about the other people commenting on the site. I wouldn't pay a dime into an unproven business, but I have low risk tolerance.

Custom Bobblehead (URL) said:
I love Facebook, and I put my custom bobblehead's ads on facebook, and the result is great. :)

pradeep said:
Here's a new article I just stumbled on that discusses why the Facebook Application Platform will slow down:

http://zooie.wordpress.com/

I say, sell those shares then ...


stone said:
Peter/Dan,

Sounds a little like language used by folks back in the mid 90's as they defended Geocities and Broadcast.com. Back then sites like facebook were called community. At one point they were adding tens of thousands of "new" communities each day. Now, sadly, they don't exist. If Matt Cohler is the seller then he clearly doesn't believe in the future, for if he did, he probably wouldn't be selling now.

Robert said:
Well there is no doubt that facebook remains popular but the same hurdle is hurting them. They can't seem to monetize the site, how can you sell something that's not making money? That's the clincher really...

That said, while it may be a fad, it's not passing that quickly so there may be time to figure out how to make a buck.

Until then I would be more willing to rate it $1 - $10 for each user.

Matt (URL) said:
I'm not really surprised by this - I always thought the 15B estimate was just way too high for this site. 5B might still be a little bit much, but a lot of it depends on their ability to increase revenue.

stone said:
BTW, should've mentioned that there is no more perfect market reflection then a person like Matt Cohler selling. He is the definition of smart money. If he's eager to sell --- especially if he's trying to sell all his stock --- he is saying to the market that things can only go down from here. That is, my friends, the purest form of capitalism that exists. Trying to read anything into this other than "he's scared and wants to sell" is folly, guesswork and speculation.

Tim said:
Dan, I agree. While I'm not adding a ton of contacts, the majority of my contacts were high school and college friends who were already added while I was still in school. I think a major hurdle for the site was "acceptability" outside of the school setting, and looking at friends pages, those who are graduates are still using it frequently. I also think their addition of profile filters for determining which "type" of friend someone is - close friend, acquaintance, co-worker - has bridged a gap that will enable more networking, as you can make sure a co-worker doesn't get the impression that you're some booze-hound as your tagged pictures may suggest.

Of course none of this equals profitability, which is an entirely different ballgame. But I think it demonstrates staying power, which goes a long way towards monetization.

Shawn (URL) said:
So if facebook is not as good as some of you say....why not look at a publically traded company that is giving back 60% of it's revenue to it's end users, the customer....not just the board or employees. IECM has been growing up down, up down for over 10 years now and will be releasing a social networking widget that links all the sites into one widget placable on one web site. Soon after they say they will have two more enterprise business solutions too.
TokSee

marc (URL) said:
Marc C. from http://www.cenedella.com/stone/ here -- the commenter 'Stone' is not me. I do enjoy this thread though!

@stone. Funny. I was a Geocities user for a whole 7 minutes back in the day. I understand your points doubting Facebook's macro ability to grow, maintain, prosper, profit, etc. That's not what I was talking about. All I'm saying is that from the perspective of a real Facebook early adopter -- not one of the "social media experts" -- the site is every bit as useful on a daily basis as it was in 2004. The real users haven't flaked off yet. Sure, of course they might. But they haven't yet.

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