Microsoft Needs Immigrants, Facebook Doesn't

Vasanth Sridharan | March 31, 2008 7:30 AM

H1-B season kicks off tomorrow, and it will be short and random: There are five days to sign up for all 65,000 specialty work visas the U.S. is giving away, which are then given away by lottery. Last year there was a 2 to 1 worker to visa ratio, and there won't be enough work permits to go around this year, either.

That's a problem for the likes of Microsoft, who has been lobbying Congress to raise the quota, without success. Steve Ballmer currently has 4,452 H1-Bs on staff, or about 5.6% of headcount.

But not every tech company relies on immigrant labor. Google has just 416 H1-Bs -- 2.5% of its staff -- on board, and Facebook has just one. According to Clemson University's helpful database, he (we're guessing, here) makes $105,000. A sampling of tech companies and their H1-B rolls:

Microsoft (MSFT): 4,452 employees, 5.6% of workforce. Average salary: $87,261

Cisco (CSCO): 2,673, 4.3%, $87,697

Oracle (ORCL): 1,299, 1.7%, $78,520

Google (GOOG): 416, 2.5%, $95,527

Yahoo! (YHOO): 383, 2.8%, $84,207

HP (HPQ): 174, 0.3%, $85,117

Apple (AAPL): 149, .7%, $105,388

Facebook: 1, 0.2%, $105,000

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30 Comments

Gubatron (URL) said:

Mar. 31, 7:47 AM

Hi, I believe you have a typo:

"Steve Ballmer currently has 4,452 H1-Bs on staff, or about 56% of headcount."

shoul'd be "5.6%" according to the text below when you break it down for each company.

More H1Bs please, it's just too hard to find good talent. Our company is actually a mix of 100% foreigners, a few are H1Bs others are residents a couple are naturalized citizens.

Microsoft can't probably find good US engineers cause they're all taken by the other companies or they're too busy to work for other companies.

Peter Kafka said:

Mar. 31, 7:54 AM

Thanks. Fixed.

Ami said:

Mar. 31, 8:54 AM

Well Microsoft certainly has more than 4,452 H!B holders on its roll. You can verify the facts yourself at H1Bstats.com

Gregor Hochmuth (URL) said:

Mar. 31, 8:58 AM

Interesting numbers, but I'd make one addition: one shouldn't forget that some companies (notably Google) maintain relatively large R&D offices internationally -- where the term "H1B refugee" is even used internally. It would be insightful to look at the ratio of US Citizen vs. Permanent Resident vs. visa employees for the companies you mention.

Brian said:

Mar. 31, 9:25 AM

I find it pretty shameful when American companies lay off highly skilled Americans than wine to the government they need more foreign labor.

One thing companies like Microsoft and AOL don't seem to get is this, if you keep laying off Americans and develop a rep for doing so year after year what student in his right mind would take a job with these companies.

I also don't buy Bill Gates assumption that he can't find qualified employees coming out of American colleges today. I've worked with a lot of new talent over the last few years just coming out of college either working as an intern or full time employee and I have yet to meet any H1-B visa holders who could hold measure up to American students coming out of college.

Microsoft also has the gall to bring employees in as contract workers for years on end without making them an official full time employee which is another reason why I have no respect for Gates when he wines to the government.

This whole thing about H1-B Visas is about nothing more then extra profit and higher salaries for management period by undercutting the middle class of this country.

Brian

yankini said:

Mar. 31, 9:41 AM

Well, if the immigrants were not up to quality, that will reflect in the company's income statement. Since we believe in "going global" we should not be "closed" about immigrants and "open" about selling our products abroad. Hiring immigrants is better than companies setting up shops abroad. At least these immigrants will pay tax, social security, medicare and buy stuff and won't be here to benefit social security from us.

Jeff Bach (URL) said:

Mar. 31, 10:08 AM

I just can't get rid of that old nagging urban myth about there not being enough YOUNG, single, and cheap workers for the likes of US high-tech companies (high-tech). When I worked in high-tech (mid 90's Puget Sound area), maybe 10% of the workforce was over 30, and that is being charitable. Amongst remaining friends in the Puget Sound area, there seems to be plenty of experienced and brilliant programmers. But they may have some gray in their hair and a life beyond the social confines of the office and the barista at the end of the hall....

Knowing these people and their desire, as well as the perspective they have on developing, makes it very difficult to look at this ongoing request for more H1B people as anything more than an enduring effort to keep costs down and recruit only those who are happy to sleep in their offices.

Also quite difficult to believe that for the 10+ years this noise has been repeating itself that American universities have been unable to adjust and move ahead with programs that reflect high-tech concerns. I think US higher education has adjusted and is more than willing to align with current needs in high-tech. If high-tech is so concerned about this, then maybe high-tech should consider doing even more with the programs at American universities so that those programs can produce candidates more amenable to what high-tech is looking for.

BlogReader said:

Mar. 31, 10:21 AM

Gubatron it's just too hard to find good talent.

No, it is hard to find talent at the price you are willing to pay. Perhaps what you're offering isn't that exciting or lucrative?

Microsoft can't probably find good US engineers cause they're all taken by the other companies or they're too busy to work for other companies.

Or they know that the sun is setting on MSFT and don't want to work there. What's the upside?

Jerry said:

Mar. 31, 12:51 PM

Here are the links to the "how not to hire an American" videos.

A You Tube video of a seminar on how to "game" the system so a company can "Legally" hire a foreign worker instead of an American.
IOW, a blueprint for Fraud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&eurl=http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9025268

And a Low Dobbs report ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA&feature=related

Enjoy.

Seth (URL) said:

Mar. 31, 2:43 PM

Big deal. I've never had a problem finding a job and haven't met any talented person in IT who can't land a decent position. Get over your xenophobia and American elitist attitudes.

I'm more appalled by this terrible article comparing companies like Facebook with Microsoft and Google.

These are different companies and you can't compare them like that. Facebook doesn't require a large staff and they are not global like say Microsoft.

Microsoft has to provide support to countries other than the US so unless you want to work for Microsoft and learn Farsi, shut up.

Sean said:

Mar. 31, 7:50 PM

Smaller companies (like facebook) can't afford the extra lawyer fees and other hoopla required to hire H1Bs. Your headline is not a reasonable assumption.

Peter Kafka said:

Mar. 31, 8:27 PM

Sean, if that's the case, do you think FB will use the $300-$400M they've raised in last 6 months and stock up on H1Bs now?

Nicole Simon (URL) said:

Mar. 31, 8:39 PM

You start with the idea that all that is necessary can be done by somebody from an American College. But for an international company - like many of the listed above - it is not enough to just have american staff, they need 'foreign' employees not so much for the part where they are cheap or anything, but for their expertise outside of the home market.

And I would bet that the amount of US workforce with international experience is rather small. :)

Fifi said:

Mar. 31, 10:42 PM

Jeff,

The problem with US higher ed is not in the universities. They are pretty darn good. They are also largely staffed and attended by foreigners.

The BIG problem is to be found in the middle and high schools. Employers don't want well-trained employees. They don't care for people trained to apply cookie-cutter recipes. They want educated employees, capable of problem solving, fast thinking, abstract thinking, rigorous analysis. That's the kind of stuff you need to start learning when you're 12, not 20. The US system is failing catastrophically. Between self-esteem boosting exercises and learn to the test, the kids were never taught to think in the first place.

It's an absolute disaster.

Joe said:

Apr. 01, 12:46 AM

I feel there is now a lot of discrimination against US employees... PERIOD. They "cost too much" but note that US employees are typically the most productive in the surveys, year after year. Companies say they must employ in all of the countries they sell into... but NOT HERE IN THE US. Companies are not required to employ here in the US to sell here... I say, it's time to examine this "free market" which is anything but free for employees.

Frank P said:

Apr. 01, 8:28 AM

What is really going on here is plain racism. Employers want Asians for computer positions. White Americans and certainly Blacks are not considered capable of doing these jobs. Being from Detroit this is nothing new to me. How often do you hear people say Detroit cars can't compete with Asian cars? In fact, only Japan has ever competed with Detroit (and Europe) but that's not what they say. Detroit is black and Asian is Asian. It's pure racism. The money argument is baloney and there's certainly no shortage of Americans with tech skills. I would also say that this isn't the first time white people have been oppressed in this way. My relatives in Ireland were treated as if they couldn't be educated until fairly recently when they shot into the lead in many areas. And it wasn't education that changed the Irish system. It was violence. Thousand of traitors were executed by the IRA. The Irish people would never tolerate what is happening in America. This is plain treason which is a death penalty offense. That is where it will end.

Shane S said:

Apr. 02, 2:30 PM

Nicole:

H1B's are typically for technical employees, not managerial.

The expertise needed to operate in a foreign market is almost completely operational and managerial. Code reads the same in any language, circuits function the same way, and voltage measures the same way. H1B's are not generally the preferred vehicle for finding that kind of employee.

Further, the level of domestic expertise required to operate overseas is fairly minimal. You need a small segment of your staff to be familiar with social, cultural and legal norms and how to effectively manage widely distributed teams with that cultural composition. Beyond that, the requirements lie mostly on the remote side.

All:

H1B's are a valuable and important tool to let us access the best and brightest in the global talent pool, however they are widely abused to instead get lowest common denominator tech staff as cheaply as possible.

Many ( but by no means all ) of the H1B programmers I have worked with are terribly procedural programmers with no more knowledge of the art or craft of programming than the redneck next door.

I can respect the need to learn and improve but these guys supposedly have CS degrees, and have been programming as long or longer than I have. There is absolutely no reason to be bringing these guys over on visa. We have plenty of 3rd rate coders on this side of the ocean... and they speak english as a first language.

To start another interesting thread here: Why are CEOs and other business types compensated so handsomely for what is, in many cases, a questionable contribution to company performance. At the same time, why are engineers and developers who contribute directly and tangibly to the bottom line - just try shipping a product without the product engineers - are treated as an expendable replacement commodity? The number of guys in the world who could design and build an iPod ( not targeting apple specifically, they are just a convenient example ) is far smaller than the number of guys who could successfully sell the thing... and yet who gets the big payday for it.

sally said:

Apr. 09, 3:14 PM

The data in this article clearly shows that there is no shortage of American high tech talent. Microsoft wants H1B people only because their salaries are so low. Apple and Facebook pay 20% higher salaries and have no trouble attracting American employees. The only reason Microsoft wants more H1Bs is to keep their salaries down.

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