Shiller: New York Housing Market to Crash, Too

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robert-shiller.jpg
Yale economist Robert Shiller, who predicted the 2000 stock market crash and the current real estate crash has news for Manhattan: You're not immune. In a lengthy Observer interview, the professor scoffs at the idea that, while the rest of the country implodes, Manhattan real estate will just keep jumping 10% a year. Shiller likens the city to ancient Rome before the fall and says the crash is only a matter of time. Excerpt below:

You’ve been warning of a national real estate collapse since 2005. Do you feel vindicated?

Mr. Shiller: Well, I don’t like to use the word vindicated, but it is unraveling as more or less I expected.

The sub-prime mortgage scandal hasn’t much affected Manhattan. Are we immune?

Firstly, you’re definitely not immune, OK? Manhattan is a unique place, and that does mean that it has different dynamics, but it’s not immune, I can guarantee you that … If it gets too expensive in New York, people will leave it, no matter what—they can’t afford to live there. And so it’s just not true that New York will keep appreciating independently of everywhere else, I just don’t believe it. Elementary economics say people will always substitute away when the price gets too high, and so they’re doing that.

What will the bursting of the real estate bubble in New York look and feel like?

It will probably start showing synchrony with the rest of the country, and it will happen very gradually, it will start slowing down. If we’re going into a recession, it won’t be that exceptional, people won’t be that surprised

Our real estate boom since the 90’s is unrivaled, you’ve said, even by the post-war baby boom. So would it be normal, even desirable, for it to end?

It would be a great thing for New York if prices came down, because more interesting people would move in. Your artists can’t afford to live there anymore … They’ll move out of Brooklyn, they won’t be anywhere nearby.

In a thesis sure to mortify Manhattanites, Shiller also argues that Manhattan will soon be replaced--that we'll just build another one. He suggests this is already happening in Greenwich and Stamford and cites Bank of America's move to Charlotte as evidence that those who live in rabbit warrens in superstar cities are shocked to find that they prefer having two acres and livestock.

See Also: Shiller: Housing Has Not Yet Begun to Collapse






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JCin SF said:
DAR, you are overestimating supply vs. demand as a factor in the global RE price runup. It's multifactoral. And you're discounting speculation completely, it seems. There's a lot of that.

You are in bubblethink land. According to your logic, NYC RE should never have gone down. Even though it was slightly dirtier, in the early 90s is was just as dynamic and desirable. Same for SF.

Japan/Tokyo had very limited supply. Why did that go down?

DAR said:
I think he's way off on this assessment:

"If it gets too expensive in New York, people will leave it, no matter what—they can’t afford to live there"

New York (particularly Manhattan) is a cosmopolitan city, and so it attracts people from all over the world. So he's misunderstanding the supply and demand balance in New York.

There's a *huge* demand by people *from all over the world* who want to live here. And there's a *very* limited supply of affordable housing here.

Add in the following now:

The demand never really decreases much (at least not compared to the available supply). And the supply of affordable housing keeps getting smaller (i.e., as more places go upscale, old buildings get demolished to make way for new fancy condos, etc.)

So the supply and demand keeps pushing Manhattan to the high end of the market, where only the wealthy can afford it.

But then even at the high end, supply and demand still is unbalanced. There's still only a limited supply of even high-end apartments. And yet there's still a huge demand for high-end apartments from the large number of wealthy people world-wide who want to live here (or own a second home here).


Sorry. Barring some major socio-economic changes that suddenly make NYC an undesirable place to live (like we saw in the 1970's), there's just no way that NYC residential real estate is going to soften very much. It really is just simple supply and demand!

JCin CA said:
I was born in NYC, and have a soft spot in my heart for it. I now live in SF - another place that is too expensive and will depreciate - but one that is very pleasant to live in.

But NYC is a crappy place to live for most, and given how expensive it is, the proposition seems very strange to me.

I think Manhattan's future/present is as an improved financial/media/legal version of Venice. Nothing more. Now Queens and Brooklyn, those are vibrant places. Today, they are the "real" NY. But with the hassles, traffic, lack of parkland, etc., they still aren't very nice except in small spots.

I think quality of life is a big reason why the new tech economy isn't rooting in NYC.

NYC needed/needs to invest billions in open space and coordinated regional development. But in an already-built environment, that's too hard to do.

vespa said:
The thing is - even BofA feels a need to be in NYC - and a substantial need at that . They currently lease space at 9W57th - one of the most prestigous buildings in the city, and are building a rather impressive building at the NW corner of bryant park that they are going to be moving into upon completion. So they may have their headquarters in NC, but they still have a significant presence here in NY.

As for NY getting replaced, ask any high flying young financal professional (or legal professional, or technology professional) where they would rather work, stamford or NYC, and the answer is clear, NYC is not getting replaced. Besides, rents in Greenwich are just as expensive as most of manhattan due to limited availability, and it's more of a convenience for the guys who run the funds than anything else.

Don't expect Manhattan to turn into a has been any time soon. (isn't that what people said would happend after 9/11 and the .com era bursting)

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